SC Top Court alters test results

[Captain Worley]

Now this makes me furious.

http://www.thestate.com/news/story/224562.html

If I took a test and failed, I'd suck it up and retest, like most folks. Most folks whose daddies can't have an entire section tossed out because pumpkin or junior didn't pass.

I can barely contain myself I'm so angered by this.

[cuebald]

My daughter went to law school in Boston and took the bar exam in Tennessee in early August.

Two weeks ago she learned she had passed after sweating bullets for three months waiting for the results, and Tuesday she called to tell me she had a job with the Public Defender's office in Nashville.

She moved to Nashville after graduation the last week of May, went to a prep school for those wishing to take the bar exam, and studied sixteen hours a day, seven days a week for over two months to prepare herself for it.

Had she not passed, she would have taken another job until she could try the exam again in six months. It would NEVER have occurred to her to ask for any type of special favor from anyone because she didn't pass.

This sort of BS is absolutely one of the major problems with this state, demonstrated by Jean Toal being slapped on the hand for DUI/hit-and-run and Andre Bauer being re-elected instead of serving time, and now having the results of the bar exam altered AFTER being published.

I hope Toal is pushed into a corner for an answer and these kids, who may be very nice kids, dumped unceremoniously into the street to fend for themselves until the can get ther poop in a pile to pass the exam. If they don't, let them flip hamburgers. If they are allowed to practice law without legitimately passing the bar, I sincerely hope they starve to death while doing so along with those who made it possible.

I agree, Captain, this is scandalous beyond all reasoning. Who can we contact to get a reversal on this ridiculous ruling?

[Gator96]

State Rep. Thad Viers, R-Horry, who passed the July exam without Supreme Court intervention, said he didn’t have a problem with the section that was tossed.
“I’m not going to second-guess Chief Justice Toal,” he said. “We have a very ethical Supreme Court.”


WHAT???? BUAHAHAH HAHAHAHAH!!! Who is Viers to pass judgement on ethics? Isn't this the guy that harassed the hell out of his ex-wife? If hit-and-run is considered "ethical", then I guess Toal takes the cake. I wouldn't park within a 10 mile radius of that nut.

[Captain Worley]

WHAT???? BUAHAHAH HAHAHAHAH!!! Who is Viers to pass judgement on ethics? Isn't this the guy that harassed the hell out of his ex-wife?

He was "under the influence of love" from the news stories at the time.

Interesting how they band together to defend one another, isn't it?

[swampfox]

The bar exam has two parts. The South Carolina part, which is being described above, involves giving the particulars of a case and having the test-taker write in essay form how the case should turn out based on his/her knowledge of case law and statutes. Typically each section, such as the "wills and probate" section mentioned in the article, is graded by a single person for everybody, which can be any member of the bar. In other words, every test-taker's "wills and probate" essay answers were most likely graded by one person.

The second part is called "multi-state". It consists of questions about laws that affect most states, including federal laws. These are multiple-choice questions.

Both are very demanding.

Grading the essay question responses is also very demanding. What is expected is that the committee will get somebody who works regularly with, say "wills and probates", to grade that section of the test. Unfortunately they do not always try hard enough, or maybe they can't get an expert to grade a particular part. That leaves a somewhat unwilling (often) non-expert to read a few thousand pages of essays on a subject that he/she may not have looked at since law school and grade them competently and fairly. Often doesn't happen.

A member of my family took the bar exam in the very early 90s. Her responses on "insurance and regulation" were graded by one of the top criminal defense attorneys in Columbia. He had probably not dealt with a single case involving the relevant issues (regulatory law has to do with the kind of law practiced by government attorneys, including those who protect consumers' interests regarding insurance, utilities, etc.) since he studied for his own bar exam. How fair and competent do you suppose his grading was? This member of my family did not pass the first time based on having been given a failing grade on this section. The grader said that he had a hard time reading her handwriting, so he didn't read it all. An appeal was made, which the law does allow, and it was determined that the answers were correct but that he just had not read them (he had other options) but the appeal was still denied.

This would have been a perfect example of an appeal that might have been properly granted, allowing a re-reading of the answers. I don't know if that had anything to do with the case in the paper. It's very suspicious that it may not have since Harrison heads the committee that appoints judges to be voted on by the Senate. But I write this because nothing in the news story made it clear that it is not at all uncommon for the grading to be unfair, even capricious. After all the grader I described gets around $600/hr for his legal work, plus he has a personality usually associated with invertebrates. How careful do you think he's going to be spending a few days on what is basically a public service? He should have had his grades looked into by the court, but we didn't have that kind of pull.

She passed on the next try, with different graders.

All of this is meant to shed light on how this process works. This instance may have very well been wrong, even corrupt, but we just don't know for sure.

[Gator96]

Who can we contact to get a reversal on this ridiculous ruling?


Not the SC Soo-preeme court. :butthead: And congrats to your daughter. It's really a slap on the face to the people that earn their passing grade; those that lived off of tums and sweated bullets worrying. That makes me sick. It makes me think that those on the SC Soo-preme court got their law degree from that school Sally Struthers useta advertise on TV -- you know the one-- same time slot as truck driving school. :evil:

[Gator96]

Have y'all noticed a trend lately? I'm beginning to like the little :butthead: guy. I still think it's the allergy meds. They make for a bad attitude. :butthead:

[Captain Worley]

Swamp, that's the way they used to grade the PE exam. The problems you describe and the inability to find enough people to grade the things led them to a multiple choice format. The bar may be headed that way.

[swampfox]

The bar exam may be headed that way, but that would not be a good thing. Real life legal work would not benefit from a multiple-choice skillset. What they should have is a committee, maybe full time, with experts on the areas that they will be grading.

A lot of people don't seem to realize that lawyers, like engineers and doctors, have specialized areas in which they practice. Some lawyers do only divorces. Some do only real estate. This can come into sharp focus if any of us needs a criminal defense attorney, can't afford to hire one, and a corporate accounting attorney is appointed by the court to represent us pro bono. Unless the prosecutor was just incompetent, it would be hello, prison for us.

In the same way a criminal defense attorney should not be grading regulatory law bar exams. But they still do it.

Multiple-choice is the least effective way to test any material, except possibly for those cases where you have to work a math problem and the available answers are all pretty similar so that guessing = failure anyway.

[Captain Worley]

On the PE, they'd even work problems wrong, say use radius instead of diameter, and both answers would be there, so you did kinda have to know what you were doing.

And you are right about the bar, because even as unfair as it seems, in the real world, the judges may not be as well versed in the specialty as he should be, so I think hand grading makes a lot more sense.

[swampfox]

I think I told you about the extremely expensive computerized set-up that Richland One (and many other districts) bought to be used by students taking Tech Prep Physics, which is supposed to be as demanding as any other Physics course. Each unit was a dedicated computer attached to a module on which you could change gears, belts, thermocouples, etc, in order to simulate real demos of physical principles, mostly mechanics, heat transfer, etc. The kids had to work the problems and give answers in a multiple choice format, and the computer would then spit out their grades which I was not allowed to adjust. The kicker was that amazingly often the software would give them an incorrect formula to use for solving a problem. So I had to teach them to use the wrong formula. If you used the right formula the correct answer would not be among the choices. Then I would try to re-teach it using the right formula, but you can see how confusing that had to be, plus in any case I could not revise their grades to reflect the fact that they had learned to calculate torque, for example, correctly. Try to explain this to an administrator or even the science department head and you become a trouble maker and not a team player. The kids, as usual, were getting screwed.

Learning that life is not fair, indeed that nature is not even fair, is one of the toughest things to learn growing up, and much guidance is needed to get through that without suffering harm. I could have done with a little better preparation myself in that area. But we tend to gloss over these things, even to the point in believing in things that we know are not true because it's just too dang hard to explain. Why do we say that crime doesn't pay. Sometimes it pays real well. But the profit margin should not be the reason why we choose not to become criminals. Why do those mean old lions kill the weakest, sickest, youngest zebras? If they didn't the lions would usually starve to death and the zebra herd would become less healthy. It's tricky stuff. But what harm we do when we make unfairness an institution, as is the case with the SC Bar exam. Sure, in general the best ones pass and the worst ones fail, but often people who are among the best, who have eaten Tums, sweated bullets, and gotten everything right also fail because of the idiotic way in which they grade them. That one fecal-headed attorney that was grading the test section that I described is still about the top criminal defense attorney around, makes scads of money, and has never been once troubled for the fact that he chose not to read some peoples' exams and graded them anyway. If you're going to give a random grade it "looks" better to make it a failing grade than a passing one. Gives the illusion of being on the ball when you're not. I'd still like to see how far his head could turn without blinking, but, in the meantime, I learned that this kind of thing is very very common.

So yes, I congratulate anybody who passes the bar exam. You can't do it without being good. But you can also be good and be treated like sewage, which even if you can prove it they don't have to do anything for you. THAT was the difference with Jim Harrison's kid and the others in the paper.

[cuebald]

If I were one of the beneficiaries of the grading shuffle here, I think I would be ashamed to practice.

If exams have no meaning, do away with any requirements whatever for anything and let anyone and everyone be doctors and lawyers and Indian Chiefs as they choose, and let them all have driver's licenses for the asking.

There is no way to give this story an acceptable smell. When the grades are in, they're in. I don't recall anyone else ever needing or asking for special assistance to pass the bar. They either did or they didn't, and if they didn't, they took it five or six times until they either did or gave up.

That's life.

[swampfox]

They don't know what shame is. Or at least we can see that their daddies don't.

[Captain Worley]

See, to me that's got to be an ethics violation.

Cue is right; once the grades are in, they're in. Appeal them through the normal preocess. Don't have Daddy call hi buddies.

I can't belive what that girl posted in myspace. SHE needs to be disbarred for that alone.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[swampfox]

Exactly. The appeals process is legal and open to everybody.

[Lakal]

The bar exam may be headed that way, but that would not be a good thing. Real life legal work would not benefit from a multiple-choice skillset. What they should have is a committee, maybe full time, with experts on the areas that they will be grading.

A lot of people don't seem to realize that lawyers, like engineers and doctors, have specialized areas in which they practice. Some lawyers do only divorces. Some do only real estate. This can come into sharp focus if any of us needs a criminal defense attorney, can't afford to hire one, and a corporate accounting attorney is appointed by the court to represent us pro bono. Unless the prosecutor was just incompetent, it would be hello, prison for us.



In the same way a criminal defense attorney should not be grading regulatory law bar exams. But they still do it.


I see this in family court a lot. A parent or a child is provided with a pro bono attorney who knows nothing about family law. It's a disgrace.

[swampfox]

Tell more about this, L, because you've seen more of it. Plenty of times public defenders and pro bono attorneys never know the first thing about the case nor do they meet the defendant until they are actually standing in front of the judge. Yes?

[swampfox]

Well, according to the article in the paper today, there is not currently an appeals process as there used to be.

"Earlier this year, the court had set a rule that said all bar exam scores are final, and applicants are not allowed “to seek re-grading or any other review of the results.”

http://www.thestate.com/news/story/225558.html

I'm for everybody taking responsibility for their own stuff, but that only makes sense if you're dealing with a system that makes sense. Having unqualified graders for the essay portions does not make sense. If they would get qualified graders, then they should tell kids like Harrison's to go start studying for the next test. But I would sure as hell have a complaint if a tax attorney graded my criminal procedure test answers.

[Lakal]

Tell more about this, L, because you've seen more of it. Plenty of times public defenders and pro bono attorneys never know the first thing about the case nor do they meet the defendant until they are actually standing in front of the judge. Yes?


True. I've lost count of the times a pro bono attorney has asked me :"do you see my client here? What do you know about them?"

I was relieved of a case as the family was moving out of town. It was assigned to an attorney Guardian ad Litem ( as opposed to a volunteer GAL). After a year the attorney GAL has not even contacted the family.

Many attorneys who get a case assigned to them by the judiciary will pay another attorney to take the case for them. I think there should be a core of family court trained attorneys who not only know family court law but are willing to take these cases. We'd have to come up with a way to pay them but surely some smart person can figure something out.

[Captain Worley]

I thought it was hilarious that Jean Toal took exception to the wording of the article and told The State, "My schedule doesn't revolve around calling you folks when I'm out of town," or words to that effect. I'm surprised they didn't make more of that than they did.

[swampfox]

Jean Toal has some pretty big faults, maybe too many. But she is still about the best Chief Justice we've ever had.

Folks is funny that way sometime. I'm reminded of the TV show "House" about a nutty doctor who really doesn't give a dang about his patients yet he is the best doctor they have. In one show he was offering to bet on whether a patient survived or not.

I'm not supporting a double standard here. I don't excuse her for her DUIs or for this bar exam thing. But she is a brilliant jurist.

"What can you do?" - Homer Simpson

[Captain Worley]

Anyone who rides a Ducati can't be all bad.

[Captain Worley]

Here's the latest on the scandal. The head of the group that administers the test says he was left out of the loop:

http://www.thestate.com/news/story/228307.html

[cuebald]

Scandal? What scandal?

You mean Business As Usual, don't you?

There is an old expression about "Honor Among Thieves". I think we have empirical evidence of its falsity.

Did I say thieves? Silly me. I meant "jurists", of course. The saddest part of the whole affair is that all the attorneys of the state are not up in arms about a cheapening of the standards for their profession. They apparently consider it business as usual as well. And they will not be the ones to bear the long-term costs of this episode.

[cuebald]

Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Jean Toal would have played golf.


“I admonish you to not let anything, including recent events, dampen your enthusiasm” for the nation’s bedrock principle — the rule of law, Pleicones said at the Koger Center.
Pleicones also told the new lawyers that Chief Justice Jean Toal had a “long-scheduled event” in Horry County and could not attend Tuesday’s swearing-in.
Toal played in, and spoke at, the inaugural Carolyn Cudone Invitational golf tournament at the Dunes Golf and Beach Club, tournament director Kathy Cuppia told The (Myrtle Beach) Sun News."

http://www.thestate.com/news/story/229078.html (http://www.thestate.com/news/story/229078.html)

As for me, I will stand by my above post.

[Captain Worley]

Jeez. The blatant disdain is just amazing.

[Captain Worley]

The SC bar has weighed in and said the supreme court needs to explain it's actions. I'm betting there will be little effect.

http://www.thestate.com/local/story/231259.html

And an interesting editorial on how we've just given up and accepted the good old boy system:

http://www.thestate.com/editorial-columns/story/231363.html

[swampfox]

Amazing story. Good for the SC Bar. But I seriously doubt that anything can reverse the grade changes now.

As for the editorial, I admit that I am somehow resigned to dishonesty in government. It's not that I don't still get mad about it, but I know not to expect honorable behavior from our legislators, both state and Congress, nor our governors and presidents. And what he said about the short attention spans hit it right on the head. The only people who could make a difference, the voters, just don't get concerned about malfeasance in office or even blatant constitutional violations. I think part of it is that they don't understand how it works, but mostly I think they are just accustomed to it as the writer says.

I don't think that this can be changed.

Lately I've been pondering about whether the practice of voting in secret, behind a curtain or something like that, is really protected by the constitution AND whether it's a good idea. People will behave a lot differently if they have to publicly take responsibility for their actions.

I guess it's too late for the old New England town hall form of government, where you had to show who you voted for by raising your hand in front of everybody. I think fewer crooks would be elected if we did it that way.

What is really happening is that we are voluntarily accepting second-class citizenship. As long as we get the stuff that we want we'll accept anything. Just like in Aldous Huxley'd "Brave New World".

[Captain Worley]

Gosh, given a week, you'd have thought out a more plausible excuse than this. Pathetic.

http://www.thestate.com/local/story/234844.html

[better days]

Jean Toal is a joke. The only reason she is allowed to continue as the chief justice is because she is a woman. The bar members even complain that money is spent on her self promotion.

[swampfox]

I'm not condoning all of her actions, but she has the highest respect nationally. She is the president of the national association of state chief justices. She is on a very short list for the US Supreme Court should we ever get an actual president.

Again, no excuses, but history is full of deeply flawed characters who accomplished great things.