Just a ?, and maybe i was wrong

[No Clue!]

Ok, heres a ?. I got into a fight in Richland Co. and I only threw one punch. The guy I hit then DROVE over me w/ his car. When the SD showed up they said that since i hit first then there was nothing they could do. ? is, how is it ok this hit someone w/ a car for being punched? If you get hit, does that give you the right to shoot someone? Isn't a car a deadly weapon too?

[Captain Worley]

Learn to walk away, dude.

[No Clue!]

Ok, Maybe I Was Wrong. But That Make It Ok For Him Using His Car As A Weapon?

[I. B. Wright]

It is perfectly legal to use deadly force in the act of self defense.

[No Clue!]

Ok, I Bounce. So next time i get into a fight, I will make sure to shoot them and tell them that some idiot told me that it was ok... Think that would work???

[Captain Worley]

You did start it, too. Like I said, learn to walk away.

[FloridaFan]

Ok, I Bounce. So next time i get into a fight, I will make sure to shoot them and tell them that some idiot told me that it was ok... Think that would work???


Better be careful! Have you read the recent news and cases where Bouncers have been sued for hurting people? If you threw the first punch then you initiated the conflict. Yeah, maybe he shouldnt have tried to run over you with his car...but we all dont think clearly sometimes now do we? Next time you get an out of control patron...do what most people do...call the Police...they are trained to handle that kind of stuff you know!

[Just a name on a screen]

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Car for a fist?? No way!

[swampfox]

To prove self-defense in SC, you have to show that 1) you had reason to believe that somebody was going to hurt you or somebody else, AND 2) that you did not have a reasonable means of escape.

While No Clue was certainly at fault in starting the fight, once the guy got into his car he certainly had a reasonable means of escape (unless No Clue had a firearm). That he ran over No Clue (IF No Clue did not have a weapon), that becomes a separate crime and there was certainly no justification for using deadly force at that point.

[No Clue!]

All I had was my fist. No weapons at all. Thats not me. I wasn't working at the time, we had words and he made a quick move and i responded (the wrong way, but did) and broke his nose. I tried to get out of the way of the car, but didn't move fast enuff i guess.

[swampfox]

I am not an attorney, but I believe that there were two separate crimes here. One would be against you for starting the fight, the other against the other guy, for attacking you with his car. Since you didn't have a weapon, there's no way he could prove self-defense when he was already in his car and therefore had an easy means of escape.

There are more things to consider before you take any action. I believe that you should be able to press charges against him, but, did he press charges against you? Unless he caused you a more serious injury to you than you did to him, I think I would drop it.

Another reason to think about letting it go is the possibility of civil charges, in other words, is one of you going to sue the other for damages? You can't sue unless you have damages. Unless one of you was injured far more than the other one, I think I would drop it. You might consider the mental anguish of a car headed toward you as damages, but no jury is going to go for that, especially considering the way the whole thing happened.

But don't take me as the final authority. If you want to take some action, go and ask an attorney about it first.

I'll tell you how I avoid this kind of thing. I don't go to the kind of bars (or whatever kind of places) where fights happen. It's pretty easy to tell the difference. If you voluntarily put yourself in danger, there is a lot less you can do about it if something does happen.

[No Clue!]

I got a broke rib and really bad road rash (will be scars). Other then this happened two weeks ago and the scabs are still here and rib still hurts, no other injuries.

[swampfox]

Keep the medical records. Take good pictures. (Would be better if they were right after the accident.) Juries get excited about blood and permanent scars. But if the other guy had a broken nose, I guess he was bleeding too.

I still think my best advice is to avoid such places altogether. I haven't been in a public establishment where there was a fight in 25 years, and even then I was there because I was part of the band.

[cuebald]

I still think my best advice is to avoid such places altogether. I haven't been in a public establishment where there was a fight in 25 years, and even then I was there because I was part of the band.

When I was living in Klamath Falls, Oregon in 1974, we used to go to a little bar in Chiloquin called the Rainbow Grill. It had three inches of sawdust on the floor (what didn't in KF) and a short bar with four stools and six tables.

The lumberjacks worked two weeks on and a week off cutting with two man chainsaws and communicated with hand signals. By the time they got back to take r & r they had almost forgotten how to speak, but they had muscles in their sweat from the chainsaws.

One night I had gone there with one of the guys I worked with and sat at a table in the corner. There was a couple at one of the other tables and a couple at the bar. Four lumberjacks came in and took a third table.

The man at the bar went to the bathroom and one of the lumberjacks took the opportunity to move in on his girl. He came back and protested, and the 'jack told him to get lost or something to that effect - we couldn't hear for the jukebox. The man went outside and came back with a crowbar. The lumberjack took it from him and bent it double over his knee and handed it back. My buddy and I left before anything further could start. I recommend chickenheartedness highly in such situations. That was the last fight I saw in a bar.

Swampie, what did you play?

[swampfox]

I've played a lot of things, whether you're talking about instruments or styles of music. That fight I referred to, a knife-fight actually, was around 1980 when I was playing mandolin in a bluegrass band.

I have played bass and electric guitar in rock bands, one of which was number one on the WUSC playlist for several weeks back in the early-mid 80s. Since then I have mostly played in public with one other person (two different consecutive partners). I play guitar as much as mandolin. To a lesser extent I play fiddle, tenor banjo and five-string banjo, and accordion, and piano (Hey, I'm finally getting my own piano next week!). I like to play blues, old jazz, real country music (not the radio stuff), Celtic (Irish and Scottish) music, and a lot of originals (all with acoustic instruments, not that I have anything against electric instruments). I'm actively working on putting together a solo show. Most of my old music friends quit playing when they had children. Now that the children are grown I think they're just tired. I'd like to have a partner again, but it's not easy to find people who are interested in the stuff I like to play (and who can play well). I'm not doing it for the money anymore, but while I was in school, that money paid a lot of the bills!

Yeah, if I saw somebody bend a crowbar, I'd leave, and I'd take the girl with me if she could make it to the car in time.

It's really not hard to tell if a place is going to be trouble or not. If you walk in and there's, for example, a bunch of hankjuniors drinking much beer and there's money on the pool table, probably better to look for another place.

[cuebald]

I like to play blues, old jazz, real country music (not the radio stuff), Celtic (Irish and Scottish) music, and a lot of originals.

I know how it goes. I never played professionally but I do write and used to play (guitar) around town at some of the open mikes until my father had a stroke in 1996. Helping take care of him for the next five years wore me out and I have never played that much since. I used to practice a couple of hours a day keeping 20 or so tunes honed. I always played to entertain myself, and usually the audience had a good time if I did.

By blues, do you mean Blind Blake, Willie McTell, Robert Johnson, etc., or are you more B.B. King and the like oriented? Real country music to me goes back to Gid Tanner and the Skillet Likkers, Bascomb Lamar Lunsford, A.P. Carter and the clan, and Uncle Dave Macon. Do your interests wander back that far, or are you more bluegrass-inclined in the days before it became a speed contest? Or maybe you are a Jim Reeves and Patsy Cline fan. The big question is, do you know what Stringbean's real name was?

[swampfox]

By blues, do you mean Blind Blake, Willie McTell, Robert Johnson, etc., or are you more B.B. King and the like oriented? Real country music to me goes back to Gid Tanner and the Skillet Likkers, Bascomb Lamar Lunsford, A.P. Carter and the clan, and Uncle Dave Macon. Do your interests wander back that far, or are you more bluegrass-inclined in the days before it became a speed contest? Or maybe you are a Jim Reeves and Patsy Cline fan. The big question is, do you know what Stringbean's real name was?

Yeah, you got it. I wish I could play like Blind Blake or Robert Johnson. What I really love is what they used to call 'country blues', which is what blues was before it moved up the river and got fancy and electric. If you get a chance to hear a record of The Mississippi Sheiks, that's what I'm talking about. In fact one of my most favorite blues men was from Laurens, SC, though he spent most of his life in New York. His name was Rev. Gary Davis. Like a lot of street preachers in the old days, he would sit on the corner and play until he drew a crowd, whereupon he would preach. His CDs are still in print, easy to get.

You got it right on the country music too. Gid Tanner, Charlie Poole, the Carters, Tommy Jarell, Unlce Dave (the first star of the Grand OId Opry). You know there's a lot of music festivals for this Old-Time music (as they call it now - I still call it country). I love Hank Williams (the real one) and Patsy Cline, and even Jim Reeves and those guys too. But I get most of my material from the older stuff. Don't care at all for Garth Brooks or the horse he rode in on. In fact almost all of what gets on country radio these days has nothing to do with the traditions of country music (except for a few, like the Dixie Chicks and Alan Jackson). It's really just bad rock and roll by guys with cowboy hats. I call them all hankjuniors.

About half of my musical heart is taken up by Louis Armstrong (forget the later recordings after he was on the Ed Sullivan show). IF any one musician made jazz into a great art form, it was him.

I like bluegrass that is either very traditional (the Stanley Brothers most of all) or very progressive (like Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, Tony Rice, the first album by Nickel Creek, etc.) I don't care at all for bluegrass bands that are even willing to play Rocky Top or Fox on the Run, or for the ones that are just seeing how fast they can play. I do love Alison Krause. I think that Dan Tyminski, who plays guitar with her and sings harmonies, is one of the finest bluegrass and traditional country musicians there is right now.

I've heard a lot of good stuff lately. I'll recommend some recordings if you want. There are a lot of younger people now doing interesting new things with the old music without getting out of the traditions altogether.

[swampfox]

Almost forgot. Stringbean's last name was Ackeman. I forgot if I ever knew his first name.

Maybe it was Stringbean.

[cuebald]

Stringbean's first name was David. He left one of his banjos to Earl Scruggs.

The Mississippi Shieks were a family group, and the individuals cut a bunch of songs as well as the Sheiks. Bo Carter was one of best known of the brothers and left a pretty good catalog of recordings with some of the best guitar work I have ever heard. A lot of his stuff was barrelhouse with loads of obvious double entendres in the titles and lyrics. Another brother, Sam Chatmon, had a style all his own. He is on a video at the RCPL called "Good Mornin', Blues" doing "St. Louis Blues" and "Sittin' On Top Of The World".

I am ashamed for leaving out Gary Davis. He taught a huge number of musicians who are working today. His version of "Hesitation Blues" is one of the most creative I ever heard. Willie McTell also recorded as Blind Sammy and Pig & Whistle Red (the P&W was a restaurant in Atlanta in the 40s and 50s where he played in the parking lot for tips). I have always thought he would have loved the Allman Brothers cover of "Statesboro Blues".

Mickey Newbury played the Universalist Church coffee house in Columbia five or six years back as a favor to Jack Williams who was backing him for performances. He called the current crop of Nashville musicians "hardbellies", and made the comment that there were "...not enough plastic surgeons in Nashville to get me on the charts". Sad but true.

I saw Sam Bush up close in Spartanburg when Prairie Home Companion did a show there last year. He is truly amazing, and kept good company. Doc Watson was on the bill that night. Allison Krause's show at the Township with the "Soggy Bottom Boys" was another Grand Life Experience. I don't know how Tyminski ever keeps a guitar in tune the way he attacks it, and Jerry Douglas was mesmerizing. My son, who was 18 at the time, hemmed and hawed and went to the show with us at my urging but had low expectations. He sat through the concert with his jaw on his chin, and Douglas made a believer out of him. I wish they'd come back every year.

Contemptible Country of today very simply has no talent, and tries to overcome it with Phil Spector inspired L.A. wall of sound style orchestration which has its place but is not a substitute. The lack of honesty shines like a searchlight. There are few groups doing vocal harmony outside the bluegrass community, and fewer singers with a vocal style. When Johnny Cash or George Jones or Hank Williams stepped up to the mike, you not only instantly recognized them but could not ignore them. Same for Patsy Cline. Listen to the sparse backup that furnished a soft and rich pillow for her voice to lay on and tell me how we can get this sound back back. Listen to Lefty Frizzell and tell me where Merle Haggard learned to sing.

Sorry about that. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[swampfox]

You do know what you're talking about. It makes me think I must know you.

I want you to hear two groups if you haven't already. One is Gillian Welch and David Rawlings. She sang in O Brother Where Art Thou, and appeared very briefly in the movie. He is one of the most amazing guitar players on the planet.

The other is called Uncle Earl. It's an old-time stringband of four women, each an incredible player. Some of their stuff is strictly traditional, but they write a lot of their own material, and rearrange some old songs in very nice ways. Their new album, and a solo album by Abigail Washburn, the banjo player, are both incredible, and they have them at Sounds Familiar on Rosewood.

If you know all this stuff about Sam Chatmon and all, I must know you, or at least we know some of the same people.

[cuebald]

Thanks for the tips. I learned about Gillian and David three or four years back, about the same time I discovered Iris DeMint. Gillian is a brilliant craftsman. She sat in Nashville for several years studying old time music and honing her chops, and it shows.

I'll check out Uncle Earl, thanks. Have you heard the Old Crow Medicine Show? They have done Prairie Home Companion a few times and the worst part of them has to do with dealing with the fact that songs have to end sometime.

Columbia is still a small town masquerading as a city. Chances are we have crossed paths at one time or another. I used to haunt Papa Jazz, and the standing joke with Tim was that I would buy anybody as long as they were dead and had been blind while they were alive. A nice romantic death always gets me.

The blind musicians sat on the street corners playing for tips in the 20s and 30s because the only alternative was making brooms. Fifty or sixty hours a week playing does pretty good things for the dexterity, but I'm surprised some of them lived to see puberty. A lot of them stayed drunk full time if they could, and had girlfriends by the busload. Willie McTell was known to shoot craps and start fights when he thought he was being cheated. But he sho' COULD play that twelve string.

BTW, I believe that REAL banjos don't have backs. Sorry, Earl.

[swampfox]

Yeah, I caught on early to the Old Crow guys. Love 'em.

And while Ralph Stanley is one of my top few inspirations in the world, it is true that once you've heard a good old-time banjo player, the bluegrass variety seems kind of lame. You got to hear Abigail Washburn (of Uncle Earl). I don't buy too many new CDs myself, but they do have both of these albums (Uncle Earl and Abigail's) at Sounds Familiar right now. Saw them there today. Tim might have them too.

Re: Papa Jazz, Tim often seems to shy away from people who he thinks might know more about jazz than he does, so it's necessary to humor him a little bit. I think it was hard on him when he went through his period of wearing fashionable clothes a few years ago. He'll come back strong though.

Has he ever told you that he's related to Willie "the Lion" Smith? No truth to that.

[cuebald]

I saw Ralph at Bill's Picking Parlor a couple of years back around New Year's. I think he was 76 at the time, but I couldn't tell he had slowed down at all. Ralph II, however, provided an excellent reason to take an extended break to powder your nose, walk around the block, rebuild your transmission, read War and Peace, anything but sit and listen to him.

I'll track down Uncle Earl tomorrow, and probably start at Tim's. I haven't seen him in a couple of weeks.

Do you play clawhammer by any chance? I have beeen trying for a long time to do what Pete Seeger and Grandpa Jones do, but something is missing.

[swampfox]

I'm learning to play clawhammer. I'm not real good at it yet. And now I need to reset the neck on my banjo before I can play it anymore. And I have to finish some home improvement jobs before I can do that.

I have Pete Seeger's original book about playing banjo (autographed!), but I have a hard time learning from books. Just doing it by ear.

Ralph Stanley actually plays clawhammer on some of his older albums, particularly one called "A Man and His Music", which is not yet available on CD. One of the great things about the Stanley Brothers sound was that they played a lot of real traditional old-time songs in the new-at-the-time Bill Monroe style, or almost.

Ralph II is better as a backup singer in his father's band than on his own. I don't think he'll be able to pull off the hankjunior thing.

[swampfox]

If you're interested in Celtic music at all, there is one of the great groups from Scotland, the Tannahill Weavers, playing at the VFW on Pickens St. October 7.

[swampfox]

RE: Uncle Earl. You can listen to track samples at Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000A0EM5Y/qid=1123252622/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_sbs_1/103-8727521-5539860?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

and read about the band at www.uncleearl.net.

[cuebald]

Hank Junior developed his own style. Unfortunately, so did Ralph II. I don't think Ralph will ever be a David Vrosby or an Emmylou Harris, however.

Thanks for the heads up on the Tannahill Weavers. I might just have to go. I have been madly in love with all the members of Cherish The Ladies for a long time, but I Don't think my wife will let me bring them home. Wives are funny like that, yeah, they are. You may have had this sort of experience also.

Are you familiar with Elderly instruments in East Lansing, Michigan? Elderly is the largest dealer of vintage instruments in the country. When you go in the door, they have a bass banjo (only one I have ever seen in person) over the entry. It must be five or six feet long with a 24 inch tone ring. I'd love to hear what it sounds like.

Anyway, in addition to picking up a pre-war Martin herringbone or a 000-45 ( I personally still am a fan of Larrivee), you shouldn't ask the price, or a six thousand dollar Stelling banjo ( my old Wildwood with its lonely little star in the peghead plays ever so much better when I window shop), they have assembled IN ONE ROOM probably three or four thousand CDs of some of the most interesting, sought-after, and most obscure music on the planet. If you have never done so, try Elderly.com and wander around a bit. Get them to send you a print catalog, too, unless you have a computer in the men's lounge at your house. It beats all heck out of two year old Reader's Digests and has a great deal more utility than a computer in case you run out of charmin (NOTE: green pine cones do not make a good substitute).

The other catalog you should get is from Mandolin Brothers on Staten Island. I got to play a D'Angelico New Yorker the last time I was up there, and it purred away even though I could never hope to be worthy. The catalog, though, is the draw, and is pure poetry. The owner is a superb copy writer and in love with his charges, even the old, beat-up, ugly, and unloveable. You should not pass through life without experiencing this.

Enough for now. I need to go walk.

[scarletonion]

It is perfectly legal to use deadly force in the act of self defense.

It is perfectly "legal" to use REASONABLE force in the act of self defense.
If someone hits me, I go to my car, insert the key, start the motor, I then have the option of putting the car in first or reverse. I am not in danger.
If I use the vehicle to run over the guy I am acting more like a ****** who wanted to win the fight by any means possible - not like a person who is in danger of being injured.

God, what happened to the days when two guys had a confrontation and they either fought or didn't. Now everyone runs their mouth like the want to fight. "MF" this and "MF" that.
No one walks away and few are man enough to actually fight. They pull their "nine" or their knife. Now it is get in your car and run over your opponent.

Didn't see who started the fight the original poster spole of. Maybe he did. Maybe it was the guy who wanted the two-thousand pound weapon. Either way, the danger was over once the driver got behind the wheel and could have driven off.

Here is a prime example of the fact that it is not a fact that simply because someone has a badge he or she does not necessarily know the law.

Legal defense is always a reasonable defense.
Maybe we are not seeing the whole story. But it is not a fact a fact that it perfectly legal to use deadly force in the act of self-defense in all situations. It is only legal to use deadly force when one has REASONABLE fear for their life.

[swampfox]

The statutes leave a lot to the courts to decide on such cases, but you don't necessarily have to believe that you will die if you don't use deadly force. You do not have to stand still (assuming there is no reasonable escape) and allow yourself or others to be seriously injured by an attacker, nor do you have to allow yourself (or others) to be kidnapped. If the state can show that you used deadly force unnecesarily, then of course you're in trouble, but the danger of losing your life does not have to be so clear-cut as you make it sound.

[Hookem&Bookem]

Ok, heres a ?. I got into a fight in Richland Co. and I only threw one punch. The guy I hit then DROVE over me w/ his car. When the SD showed up they said that since i hit first then there was nothing they could do. ? is, how is it ok this hit someone w/ a car for being punched? If you get hit, does that give you the right to shoot someone? Isn't a car a deadly weapon too?
What they should have done is locked you both up..

[1096]

Ammmmmmmmmmmen Hook! Alvin S Glen Anger Management Systems, Inc.

[cuebald]

Ok, heres a ?. I got into a fight in Richland Co. and I only threw one punch. The guy I hit then DROVE over me w/ his car. When the SD showed up they said that since i hit first then there was nothing they could do. ? is, how is it ok this hit someone w/ a car for being punched? If you get hit, does that give you the right to shoot someone? Isn't a car a deadly weapon too?

Whatever happened with this? Anyone know?

[Unregistered-----------]

Not sure how it ended, but judging from the lack or responses from the original poster he might be spending some much needed time in Alvin S Glynn..

However i will add one thing to the Vehicular Assault.. Yes from the story it was two separate events.. With just a closed fist the primary agressor did not have Ability and opportunity to take someones life meaning the original victim was not in Jepordy.. However once the original victim entered his vehicle and aimed it at the original agressor he became the primary agressor for the second call number that should have been generated..

Look back to the first 3 weeks at CJA..